The Joy Tuck Club
A podcast that celebrates the diversity and beauty of transgender identities and expressions.
How well do you truly understand the vibrant spectrum of transgender identities? Get ready to challenge and expand your perspectives as we share personal stories, debunk myths, share news, and provide helpful insights, advice on transitioning, and tips on being a better ally.
The Joy Tuck Club
The Man Who Fell to TERF
Ready to get the inside scoop on the recent Doctor Who special controversy? Stay tuned as we, your hosts Rachel and Phoebe, react to the backlash regarding the inclusion of a transgender character. We'll navigate the choppy waters of representation in media, and discuss whether there's ever a "right" way to include transgender characters.
Prepare to dive deep into the less-discussed implications of hormone replacement therapy (HRT). We'll approach this topic with personal tales and raw honesty, exploring phenomena like the surprising shift in temperature sensitivity, changes in libido, and the drastic physical transformations. Get ready to shed the unnecessary guilt and societal pressures as we stress the importance of unique transitioning journeys - reminding listeners that HRT is not a compulsory element.
But there's more! We're digging into the frightening developments around transgender rights and conversion therapy in both the UK and US. We'll unpack the anti-trans sentiments that surfaced during the recent GOP debates, the misinformation being spread about transgenderism and the lonely plight of anti-trans activist Graham Linehan. Additionally, we'll delve into the topic of trans women in amateur sports. Lastly, we'll share our two cents on the topic of bottom surgery, the role of gender identity clinics, and the importance of self-affirmation in the transition process. Don't miss this enlightening, in-depth exploration.
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Visit The Joy Tuck Club online at redandfreckles.com for transcripts, commentary, community, news, and much, much more.
Meanwhile, you can always find red+freckles (Rachel & Phoebe) on
Twitter/X: @twodamptrans
Instagram: @twodamptrans
and
Bluesky: @twodamptrans.bsky.social
The Joy Tuck Club is written, produced, and edited by red+freckles, of Two Damp Trans Ltd, UK.
Hey, did I tell you we've got pool tables at work now?
Phoebe:You mean your current work?
Rachel:Yeah, my current work I'm actually getting pretty good at it?
Phoebe:Oh wow, I'm actually not surprised, but are you good enough to enter a tournament?
Rachel:Yeah, but you know we're going to get banned from playing pool for having a physical advantage, so I probably shouldn't enter any tournaments, but I've always got chests to fall back on.
Phoebe:No, we're banned from that. What? Hmm.
Rachel:Darts Nope. What about fishing? I used to enjoy fishing as a child. Soz. Oh well, I used to be really good at badminton.
Phoebe:I don't know how to tell you this, but we're banned from badminton too.
Rachel:Oh, that's right, my shuttlecock is not to regulation size.
Phoebe:You know, the thing is, us trans women are banned or about to get banned from pretty much every sport.
Rachel:Well then we should just invent our own, or you know what? What. What we could just form a Quidditch team.
Phoebe:A trans women Quidditch team. I kind of like it.
Rachel:Yeah, we could call ourselves chicks with sticks.
Phoebe:Oh, let's start the episode.
Rachel:Hello and welcome to another episode of the Joy Tuck Club, a podcast that celebrates the diversity and beauty of transgender identities and expressions. I'm Rachel, and calling in from her cottage across the English Channel is my co-host, the beautiful Phoebe. We're also known as Red and Freckles and are the team behind two damp trans. Say hello Phoebes, hello, how you doing.
Phoebe:Oh, I'm loving doing this recording with you. I've got your voice in my ears. It sounds beautiful. I feel like we're sitting side by side.
Rachel:Yeah, I do like it when you come in my ears as well. What are we talking about today?
Phoebe:Oh, we've got a rather nice smorgasbord.
Rachel:But before we get around to that, should we talk about Robin's episode.
Phoebe:Yeah, wasn't that nice.
Rachel:It kind of blew up for us didn't it?
Phoebe:It did I know the counter for the number of downloads was running at full steam it was an unprecedented surgeon listens and I don't understand why?
Rachel:Well, obviously it must have been the draw of Robin.
Phoebe:I think so. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, she's a special woman.
Rachel:I mean it's quite humbling because when we started this podcast we didn't think anyone would listen. It'd probably be three listeners yeah me, you and our dog, yeah me and my dog. Yeah me and my dog, yeah. But it's really, really nice to see those figures going up and actually get feedback from people saying that they're enjoying what we do. So thanks, they are.
Phoebe:Someone even mentioned if they'd been listening to this podcast years ago, it would have cracked their egg.
Rachel:Well, that's just affirmation for us that what we're doing is being well-received and we're on that track, Absolutely.
Phoebe:We have to scramble to make more episodes, though. Yes, Well, we've got plenty planned.
Rachel:Yes we do.
Phoebe:Yeah, including some great new interviews.
Rachel:So I just wanted, before we get into our main topic, I just wanted to touch on the Doctor who special that we watched the other night. Oh, yes, and it's trans inclusion. That was a sure way to stir some people up, wasn't it? Well, it certainly stirred some people up and I think the BBC had 100 complaints, more than 100 people took the time, oh, more than 100 complaints.
Rachel:Sorry, I misread that. Took the time to complain to the BBC that they think that the trans storyline is in a place where the trans storyline is inappropriate.
Phoebe:For Doctor who, a show that's never adhered to the cishet normative.
Rachel:Well, Doctor who, a show where the main character actually transitioned into being a woman for a couple of seasons.
Phoebe:So that's true. How dare they? This is completely unfitting.
Rachel:Yeah, but the complaints ranged from saying that the excellent Yasmin Finney, her character, rose, was anti-male and others said it was an inappropriate inclusion of a transgender character.
Phoebe:Oh goodness. Well I would have to ask them have you left us with a single appropriate way to include a transgender character? Because every time one of us appears in a show, you complain.
Rachel:Yeah, and I think we haven't watched the third one yet. But there's more to come in the third episode, excellent.
Phoebe:I'm really looking forward to seeing it.
Rachel:What are you doing tonight? Upset a few people. Oh, we can do that after this, yeah let's do that. But the writer Russell T Davis previously said that Finney, joining the beloved Doctor who, said that there are unfortunately some who are full of absolute hate and venom and destruction and violence who would like to see that sort of thing wiped off the screen entirely. To those people he said shame on you and good luck in your lonely lives.
Phoebe:Oh hey. Well, that's neat because later on I know we've got something to talk about regarding lonely lives.
Rachel:We do.
Phoebe:It's a news piece.
Rachel:Okay, yes, absolutely, I know what you're talking about. Now, even though I wrote the show notes for this, one Couldn't remember what you were talking about, but yes, we have.
Rachel:And also, just quickly before we get into the main topic, I'd like to touch on something that happened on Twix the other day. Yes, Jenny, who we'll be featuring in this podcast in a few weeks' time she posted that her and her partner were watching Elf, and it was the first time her partner had seen it. Now I may get a lot of stick for this, because I accuse you of being stunted when it comes to pop culture Stunted.
Phoebe:Is there a better word?
Rachel:I must put my hand up and say I've never seen Elf.
Phoebe:Well, I know, I just don't even know what to say to that. You have four children. Yes, I do.
Rachel:And it's a kids movie. I'm not saying they haven't seen it. They most probably have all seen it. I have not.
Phoebe:Oh well, that's another one for us to see.
Rachel:Yes, we'll put that on the list. Maybe we'll watch that Christmas day, although I'm still not feeling it. No, it's not that I don't like, it's not that I don't like Bill Ferrell, it's that I think I got a bit feraled out. When a little feral, yeah, when a little feral, he's made some excellent films, yeah, and I just think I saw that one. I was like, oh, I'm a bit tired of Will Ferrell.
Rachel:And the other thing is everyone was telling me that I should see it, and the more people that do that, the more I decide I don't want to see it. Yes, I've never been a follow the herd kind of girl, but what normally happens is like it happened with everything that I've watched. Game of Thrones, I eventually watched it, but I didn't start watching it until pretty much the last cut of seasons were airing, because everyone was saying, oh, you need to watch this, this is brilliant. And I was like, oh well, no, no, no, no. The same with Walking Dead yeah, I didn't get into that at the beginning, when everyone else was into it. Yeah.
Rachel:But that I actually stopped watching because it got really boring Well, in some of these.
Phoebe:You do want to see how they end up, when shows get cancelled willy-nilly and it stops halfway through a storyline. It's just. Do you even want to begin it?
Rachel:Cancelled. Like Graham Lyonam.
Phoebe:Yes, yes, yes, and his mate Artie Barty.
Rachel:Artie Barty Anyway. I think that's it. Let's get on to the main topic.
Phoebe:So what is the main topic today, Rachel? Well, we were going to talk about Kemi.
Rachel:Badenok and her speech that she gave to Parliament, and also talk about what's happening in America with the transphobic presidential debates.
Phoebe:Right, but her speech. I feel like we are being flooded with anti-trans content right now and I see it on social media as well and I personally find it rather triggering.
Rachel:Yeah, I did too. I actually watched the whole hour long speech making notes for the podcast, yes, and in the end I didn't make it through the whole hour. I had to turn it off.
Phoebe:So do you have another plan?
Rachel:Yeah, we've airdropped in a new discussion topic. The pink news featured a story that I quite liked as a discussion point, and it was about the five unexpected effects of HRT, so we're going to have a look at that article, okay, and then we can chat about that and talk about our own experiences starting HRT, which is a lot nicer than talking about the horrible Tories.
Phoebe:It is Okay. Positive trans content Yay, this is a good decision.
Rachel:Let's do it, okay, so this is a story in the pink news and it is the five things I wish I knew before starting Hormones as a trans person.
Phoebe:Hmm, okay, so this is a great choice. I'm just going to read out a little bit from the intro before we get into talking about it. So HRT hormone replacement therapy is, for many trans and non-binary people, a huge step in transitioning, but the process can be complex and confusing.
Rachel:Yeah, while the goal of HRT is to help a person feel more comfortable in their body and help them express their true gender identity, the treatment can have lots of subtle side effects that might not be immediately apparent.
Phoebe:Right. Thank you, pink news for that lovely intro and article.
Rachel:Yeah, couldn't have said it better myself.
Phoebe:So what is amazing is the euphoria we experience, but then also some other things happen.
Rachel:Yes, I think trans people you've got certain things that you know are going to happen. So like, if you're a trans woman, you start taking hormones, things like your skin softening breast growth. Maybe you're lucky enough to have your hips widen a little bit, a bit more fat distribution into a more feminine state, but there are certain things that aren't so well publicized.
Phoebe:Yes, Okay, so let's get into it. Symptom number one is it cold or is it just me?
Rachel:This was a real problem for me. Yeah yeah, it's a common thing, isn't it? How women, even cis women, feel the cold more than men. I mean, I know lots of guys that complain about their partners, their female partners, turning the heating up when the guys are already roasting, because women feel cold more than men.
Phoebe:Yeah, yeah. Do you know why they do? No, please tell me. It's because estrogen affects blood flow and dilates blood vessels, so the body's less able to store heat for longer amounts of time. So this is a completely normal byproduct of estrogen, but it can come as a surprise. I mean, I know the first cold weather I went through on HRT, I was wearing coats a lot more than I normally did.
Rachel:Well, though surprisingly although I agree with this, because I definitely do feel the cold more than I used to before when I was on HRT there have been times when I hardly feel the cold at all, and that will be queuing up outside a nightclub in a minute, so it just came from context. It's very strange. I used to see these girls and they get oh, they must be freezing, yeah, but for some reason, yeah, you're not. I can't explain that.
Phoebe:Oh, I don't know. We've been out together in London and to the winter wonderland and I was absolutely freezing, but you told me something that's never quite left and that's that style beats comfort. It really does yeah.
Rachel:Yeah, If you look hot, you'll feel hot. Well, I like the way you said that. But yeah, I did mention this to my endocrinologist once actually, because every time I have an appointment with him he's like, how's the transition going? And I remember saying to him oh, it's definitely working, because I'm feeling the cold more than I used to. And he was surprised. He actually said that he'd never heard of that, which does make me question how good an endocrinologist he is.
Phoebe:Do you think he had many other trans patients? Yeah, it's what he does.
Rachel:He specializes in trans patients, but anyway, should we move on to number two? Yes, please Go for it.
Phoebe:Transfems have periods too and please, before we get blamed for appropriating something that assigned female at birth tend to have, I know I go through cycles.
Rachel:Absolutely, because the main driver behind the menstrual cycle is a shift in hormone levels, which we, as trans women, naturally have. It might not be monthly. I take my estrogen every three to four days. I take it with a patch on my skin, which means my levels are quite consistent. But my testosterone blocker is three monthly and I can feel that that is starting to wear off when I get towards the end of that three months and I'm due another injection. Yeah, so I've got a three monthly cycle.
Phoebe:Yeah, wow. Well, now that I've switched to injections, I'm not exactly certain where my levels are at yet I'm waiting to get measured but I could definitely feel a change in my testosterone levels. They went up I don't know how much. It's quite disconcerting.
Rachel:How did you notice that change?
Phoebe:You know exactly how I noticed it my atrophy down below suddenly reversed.
Rachel:Yeah, I feel it.
Phoebe:Oh, I did. Oh, my Lord, I can't believe we're recording this. I can.
Rachel:Should we move on, or have you got anything else to say about that? No, do you want to go? Take us through the symptoms?
Phoebe:Yeah, because I've definitely got all of these changes in my anxiety levels, changes in appetite. I just go completely off food. I have no interest in it. I think mood swings are all sort of related to that, to anxiety. Absolutely Fatigue, yeah, yeah, tiredness fatigue, not cramps, not that I've noticed Some trans women do get cramps. Yeah.
Rachel:I know, as they state in this article, there's a turfs will say it's rubbish that trans women can't get periods, but just because there's no bleeding involved doesn't invalidate the factual things that happen into their bodies. Like I said, the driving force behind this is the change in hormone levels. Yes, same as it is in a cis woman.
Phoebe:Well, and I want to address as well one of the turfy GC slurs against us, where they say we're taking cross sex hormones, and that's utter nonsense, because both male and female bodies produced testosterone and estrogen. Both use them in different ways and all we're doing is adjusting the ratio to match that of a female body from a male, and in so doing we developed secondary sex characteristics, the same breast development and fat movement, and so on, softening skin. It's not poisonous.
Rachel:I feel like that they shouldn't take our word for it, that maybe in a few weeks time we should release a special talking to someone who knows all about the medical side of transitioning.
Phoebe:That's a great idea. Down to the cellular level, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I know exactly who it'll be.
Rachel:I can't see her at the moment.
Phoebe:She's somewhat of an invisible entity, and she will be appearing here very soon.
Rachel:Okay, so the next one.
Phoebe:Patience is key, because one of the most common things you'll hear among trans people is how shocked they are at the effectiveness of HRT and how it feminizes the body. But it doesn't all happen at once. Your body needs time to change, yeah, so you'll get some things very quickly. I mean, I felt breast growth within about three months. That was great. Oh, what an experience that was. Also associated pain, lots of pain Absolutely Well, that was exciting as well.
Rachel:One of the first things I noticed was the change in my mind. I got emotional quite quick and just also the calmness. It's difficult to explain to someone who hasn't been through it, but it just felt right. Yeah, like I said in my talk the other day, finally to be running on the right fuel. But certainly the other parts of it for me, the feminization, the physical feminization I felt like that was taking ages.
Phoebe:Yes, I had the itchiness in the boobs, the nipples, yeah, you mean when they feel like there's little ants crawling underneath the skin.
Rachel:Yeah, had that, but every time I looked in the mirror I couldn't see any difference. Yeah, it got there eventually, but you've just like as they said at the beginning, patience is the key. Yeah.
Phoebe:So, according to gender, gp physical changes such as breast growth, decreased testicular volume, decreased muscle mass and facial hair thinning, which I didn't notice. I just noticed hair thinning everywhere else except for the top of my head, can take anywhere from three to six months to fully get going, but their maximum effect can take years. And sometimes you see a trans elder, someone who's been on HRT for 10 or more years, and they really look incredible. I think whilst we talk about there's also changes to that distribution on the face. The skin softening, is the skin becoming thinner, which allows a certain healthy translucency to start to come out. Yeah, of course the oil production decreases, we just look healthier and but very long term changes, oh wow, you know. You can't really even put your finger on all of them.
Rachel:I just like to add that stuff does take time, and there's a saying that flies about on trans Twitter and all of the transforms, and that's YMMV, yes, which stands for your mileage may vary. Yes, everybody's different, everybody's genetic makeup. You will see the changes at the speed that you will. You aren't compare yourself to others. You see some people on there like, oh, I've only been taking hormones for six months and I'm already a decap. Yeah, stuff like that, you've just got to hang in there. These things can take time. And also one of the things I will highly recommend and we've said it before and I'll say it again is take photos. Take a photo the day you start HRT, take a photo after a month, you know. And then, because when you look in the mirror you're not going to see these changes because they are slow, but when you start comparing photos six months to one month, you'll see the changes. Yeah, that's really good advice.
Phoebe:And also there are no hard and fast rules. That's about what surgical transitioning you might do. There's a lot of information that goes both ways, for example, saying you need to wait for your breasts to finish growing before you have a breast augmentation. Yeah.
Phoebe:But it's not true, no. So the way to think about this is that someone assigned female at birth. Their breasts grow and decrease all through their life. They happen with menstrual cycles, but also with pregnancy, also with any general weight gain or loss. Just go for it. I had my facial feminization at 11 months, yeah. And then, finally, you know these little changes and big ones that take time, they come in at different stages, but they also will provide you some of the most euphoric moments you've had since taking HRT. Yes, so stay the course.
Rachel:And the last point that they make in the article, which is also a very good one, is you're more than your hormones. A lot of trans people. It's a massive step for them to start taking HRT it was for me but it's not a necessary step in your transition. If you don't take hormones for whatever reason whether you can or can't it doesn't mean you're any less trans.
Phoebe:No, that's true. Socially transitioning is so incredibly powerful. You can do that without hormones.
Rachel:Yeah, this is a great line on here. It says your decision in what you want to do with your body does not make you more or less valid in your gender identity. Oh, yes, that's great. Yes, so did you have any unexpected changes with HRT?
Phoebe:The euphoria kicked in immediately, and I know that's not due to the hormones, but it's due to the fact that I'd started the process. It was amazing. And it was just under two years ago.
Rachel:Taking that first dose. The moment I took that first dose and you're right, it probably is psychological yeah, it felt great. Yeah, it felt like I was actually taking control. Yeah, and turning the tide and right into wrong, even though it took me the best part of two years to get my levels to where they needed to be. Yeah. And then it was due to the gatekeeping of the healthcare system in the UK. Yes, yeah.
Phoebe:I was so lucky because I went to an informed consent clinic in Connecticut in the US, so I just walked in. 10 days later, after my first set of blood tests for my hormone levels, I had the bills in my hand and I don't think anyone could have said anything to stop me taking them.
Rachel:No, I was lucky enough to gain access to the HRT. Start you off on such a low dose and you have to have blood tests every three months, and when you're outside your levels, they move them up in very small steps.
Phoebe:You would think there'd be some consistency in the way hormones are prescribed, but they started me on four milligrams of estrogen immediately and that's where it stayed. That was tablets. Yeah. And then unfortunately because this is what they do in the US is prescribed spironolectone as a T blocker and that's just that. Did not agree with me at all. The cramps I'd get all the time were horrible.
Rachel:Yeah Well, I didn't actually get put on T blockers for a year.
Phoebe:No kidding.
Rachel:No, because you start the HRT and then like your levels aren't where they need to be. Yeah. They hope that the estrogen will be enough to naturally suppress the testosterone. Yeah. So you do your first blood test. It might not have been a year, might have been six months actually. And yeah, after I'd had a couple of blood tests, they could see that the estrogen was just creeping up, but the testosterone wasn't going anywhere. So they were like, okay, now we'll introduce T blockers and see what happens.
Phoebe:Yeah Well and then the other thing that surprised me was how quickly the atrophy I mentioned earlier actually started and suddenly erections were painful and it changed very quickly. But at the same time, because you don't have all this testosterone running around, your sex drive goes way, way, way down. We're chemically castrating ourselves after all, and that actually was a relief and actually it felt like I had been freed from something.
Rachel:Yeah, do you know what a biggest surprise for me was? We know what the change in body odor.
Phoebe:Oh yes.
Rachel:No one told me about that.
Phoebe:It just goes away?
Rachel:It really does. Yeah, I wasn't the smelliest person before transition anyway, but I can't explain it. No, and now the smell of men. Wow. Yeah, like wow, did I really used to smell like that?
Phoebe:Yeah, Like you know a personal story. When you hear a couple of weeks back and the flatmate from came and had a shower and all of that sort of that male scent and then whatever deodorant he was using and it was just acrid and burning and you went into the bathroom and came out basically gagging I did, I did.
Rachel:I said baby, it smells like men.
Phoebe:I could never bear the smell of male body odor either. I ever got stuck with a sweaty man in an elevator. You know a lift Freak out. So when it happened to me, that was the worst thing. I couldn't stand to be myself. I just jumped straight in the shower. So that was yeah, that's a great one. What a nice change. That was my skin completely cleared up. I would get little bursts of pimples here and there on my face Gone Haven't had one since Nice. Yeah, that was lovely. Well, so that was a really interesting look. Everyone remember the internet is packed full of information. You don't have to listen to what crazy people say online in social media. There's real information about hormones and HRT, their effects on the body, available at great sites like gender GP. So thanks, rachel. Yeah, that was a good discussion. What's next.
Rachel:I think it's time for.
Phoebe:I love that I just do so much. Kenny beta knocks the wave. That's really clever, thank you. Kenny beta knocks the trans community for six.
Rachel:GOP White House hopefuls anti-transfield debate.
Phoebe:Cycler slams ridiculous outrage.
Rachel:Diane and I had done some deep dive thinking.
Phoebe:Glinner and co lonely together.
Rachel:So she's dive into these stories. The first one, kevin, you like that title, didn't you? I really do. This is what happens when you don't pre-read the show notes. Kenny beta knocks the trans community for six. This was Tori. I think she's Women and Equality's Minister yes, as well as something else, but I don't know. She's not high up on my radar. In a speech in Parliament, she was announcing the government's intention to update the blacklist for countries and states that they feel it's too easy to obtain a gender recognition certificate. In these places, mostly where self-idea is available for trans people, they are now saying that they will not recognize their gender because it was too easy for them to obtain. It doesn't hold up to the UK's strict rules on what you need to do to identify as the gender that you feel you are.
Phoebe:Right, but what business is it of the state to decide that? I don't understand.
Rachel:It was a horrible, horrible thing, because there were people arguing against what she was saying, but she was coming up with so many of the gender critical arguments, it's obvious who she'd been talking to, and only talking to people like the LGB Alliance.
Phoebe:Yes, and probably some chief GCs.
Rachel:So they announced this blacklist updating, but then that descended into an hour-long session of her attacking trans people, saying stuff like self-idea and social transition add up to a very dangerous ideology. We've heard that before ideology. It has terrible effects on young LGB children who are being put on a medical pathway to irreversible physical changes.
Phoebe:Oh, okay. So there's two things here the concept of ideology, which is a belief system as our religions. What on earth does that have to do with self-idea and social transition? And just to point out that social transition saves the lives of children. It pulls them back from devastating depression, from potential suicide. I do think it's interesting that she said young LGB children.
Rachel:Yes, she basically accused the trans community of transing away the gay. That's the line, isn't it?
Phoebe:Transing away the gay.
Rachel:Transing away the gay and she spoke to the detransitioner that they reallout a lot of the time. Kira Bell.
Phoebe:Yes, who didn't fully detransition. Well, she started going that way, but then she came back to non-binary. This is the problem with the only gender ideology there is is the one that claims that sex is binary, in other words, you can only be male or female. They usually tack on something like saying a non-binary doesn't exist. Well, actually, kira Bell is non-binary, so when she transitioned all the way to male, taking testosterone shots, she then had to pull that back to find her happy place, because, guess what? Gender isn't binary, it's a spectrum like everything else.
Rachel:Yes, we're not going to dwell too much on this. I think I'll just run through some of the other stuff that she said.
Phoebe:Oh yes, we stopped making it the topic. Yes, yes, okay, I'm with you.
Rachel:Let's skip through. So she spoke about publishing a draft conversion practices bill. This is something that the Tories have been promising for years and years and years, but not actually delivering on. But this was particularly interesting because this is the first time they've actually said this. So we will protect clinicians and parents who do children no harm. And they were talking about banning conversion therapy, but also stating that indulging in trans healthcare is conversion therapy.
Phoebe:Oh right.
Rachel:Yeah, so it's quite clear that they're probably thinking about doing a conversion therapy ban for everyone but trans people. Yes. Yeah, wow. And she said that gender dysphoria is complex and important that the government is taking an evidence-based and principled approach to these issues. But she also stated no child is born in the wrong body.
Phoebe:So gender dysphoria exists. It's complex, but it also doesn't exist.
Rachel:And she said in the next speech that too many people do not understand the law when it comes to self-ID. I would argue that she doesn't understand the law when it comes to self-ID, and she also states that she's engaged extensively with LGBT groups in her role as Minister for Women and Equalities.
Phoebe:But did she? This doesn't ring true at all. She might have extensively engaged with a particular LGBT group that is simply anti-T the LGBT Alliance. But the rest?
Rachel:We know they didn't because Pink News have approached all of the big hitters, all of the big LGBT groups and charities. Right. And none of them. None of them had ever spoken to Kimmy Badenock, right? So this was a lie. Yeah, she finished off that little rant by saying Stonewall, do not decide the laws in this country.
Phoebe:Oh my goodness, there is a lot in here.
Rachel:Yeah, and she spoke about social transitioning, how it's a very contested ideology and the government is going to start addressing it by giving schools guidance, presumably to stop children from socially transitioning Wow when they're at school. Yeah, and it sort of circled all the way back around and she's. She then touched on again about the Blacklist and the GRC, and then Miriam Cates, yes, brought up the fact that gender self-id threatens safety, dignity and privacy of women and girls. But in the UK we don't have self-id, but we can get our sex markers changed on our passports and driving licenses and she's calling that self-id through the back door and she's asking Kimmy Badenock to close this loophole.
Phoebe:Wow, what, what a what a massive rant that must have been. It was, and the two of them had it together. I'll just add this this change to the what they say is the overseas route to a GRC also includes my home state and country of Victoria, australia. Yeah, I don't know what this means. My new birth certificate is now invalid in the UK.
Rachel:I don't know, I don't know, I just don't see how this is. This is another example of making a lot of noise over nothing. Yeah. Because if you came to this country and your birth certificate says female, yeah.
Phoebe:How are they going to know that you've had that changed First and foremost, how are they going to know Because there's a question on visa applications have you ever been known by any other identity? Yeah, so you've got to tell on yourself. And then what? And I don't know.
Rachel:Oh, you went very Australian then Did I. You're going to dob me in Kylie, are you a dober?
Phoebe:What happens when I talk about Australia. Yeah, good day mate.
Rachel:Well, from one transphobic government to another, should we hop across the channel? Oh yeah, Do you want to take the next story?
Phoebe:GOP White House hopefuls in an anti-transfield debate.
Rachel:How many days in debate? The debate, the debate.
Phoebe:The debate.
Phoebe:Anyway. Okay, so let's take a look at this. So this is the worst moments from the presidential debates in the US that have become completely filled with anti-trans attacks, even though, as in the UK, by far the largest majority of voters say they have no interest in anti-transaction because they're decent people. So there were four candidates in this debate Ron Santos, nikki Haley, vivek Ramaswami and Chris Christie. Interestingly enough, chris Christie, who, when I lived there he was the governor of New Jersey, seems to have been the one who was most reasonable, because the rest were just going at it as fast as they could.
Rachel:I mean, they were all pretty toxic, varying degrees of it. Yeah. And just looking at the article that Ramaswami was calling for federal funding to prevent the availability of gender vermin care. He also repeated the the falsehood that transgenderism is a mental health disorder, which we absolutely know. Isn't true. Yeah, Isn't he, is he? Is he the front runner to be Trump's running mate, isn't he?
Phoebe:I don't know, I didn't think he was doing very well.
Rachel:Ramaswami, a wealthy businessman and one of the Republicans chasing front runner Donald Trump for the 2024 presidential nominations.
Phoebe:Okay, what if we just go through, well, the five worst moments and just kind of reel them off?
Rachel:I mean, it's all the usual shit. That's the thing, you know. Yeah, I know this is mostly DeSantis by the looks of. Desantis saying trans people should be preventing from using restrooms that align with the authentic self. Desantis saying that gender vermin care is child abuse. Ramaswami saying that trans is mental health, trans inclusion in sports this was from Nikki Haley, women's issue of our time.
Phoebe:Really that's the issue. Yeah, given how few trans people are in sports.
Rachel:And apparently Chris Christie, who a lot of people thought was a trans ally, apparently isn't a trans ally.
Phoebe:Really. He said that government shouldn't be interfering, it's up to the parents. Nikki Haley, I don't know. I would have thought that all the new laws that have passed in the US banning abortion might be more of a women's issue, especially given some of them not only ban abortion, some of them ban abortion regardless of the effect a continuing pregnancy will have on the mother's life. There's one case recently where it's apparently better to have a dead fetus born and put the mother at real risk of dying at the same time than to have that fetus removed. God, it's just bizarre.
Rachel:But apparently that's not the women's issue of our time, it's trans inclusion in sports. Yeah, what did Ramaswami? What did he have to say about being trans?
Phoebe:He said we don't let you smoke a cigarette by the age of 18. We don't let you have an addictive drink of alcohol by the age of 21. That's a mental health disorder. That's where we need to be at Wait wait, wait, wait, wait.
Rachel:He's saying that being trans is a mental health disorder. That being trans, yes.
Phoebe:And so here's the thing Parents are allowed to let their kids drink alcohol. You just can't buy it if you're under 21 from a commercial establishment. But in this case, of course, they're trying to prevent parents from having any control.
Rachel:He also backed up what he said in the debate with a tweet that said trans is a mental health epidemic. Every serious leader should say so without apology. It is not humane to affirm the confusion of those who are mentally ill. Wow.
Phoebe:Yes, yeah, wow, thanks, yeah. These are, all you know, the same dog whistles, but they're being repeated over and over on the largest stage in the world.
Rachel:Yeah, I don't think we need to go through what one DeSantis thinks about trans people.
Phoebe:No, he's proven it over and over.
Rachel:Yeah, he's the one that bought in the bathroom ban in Florida, right yeah. Yeah.
Phoebe:I want to know how they know better than every major medical organization to say that this is a mental disorder. How dare they you know what might be a mental disorder? Psychopaths like this vying to be president?
Rachel:Well, they're all chasing the biggest psycho of them all, that's true. Donald Trump wasn't even at the debate. He's that confident. Yes, yes, and rightly so, because he's leading in the polls. Yes, incredibly, scarily. Just blows my mind that he's the favorite to be president. It's just can't get my head out there.
Phoebe:No, I know hey, so the next story.
Rachel:Yes, psycholist slams ridiculous outrage. So this is a story about another story. A little while ago there was a story that GCs were all up in arms about how two transgender women one one and then came second A amateur cycling event. Although at the time they didn't say it was amateur, they were all up in arms saying, oh, these two trans women have taken two places away from all of these cisgender women. Yeah, all of these cisgender women. And this is actually the person that came in third, this cis woman that came in third. She's actually saying that it's ridiculous. What these GCs are saying is ridiculous. She missed out on winning the Illinois cycling championship, but not regular cycling, is it?
Phoebe:It's amateur cycling, championship, cyclo-cross, I think it's called. Yep. Yeah, okay, so it's a small competition.
Rachel:Yeah, but she's actually friends with the two women one, tessa Johnson and Evelyn Williamson. Yeah, friends with Christine Chalmers, and she says that it's ridiculous to say that her life has been ruined by getting third in this competition. Right, and actually she said she had a great race and it would have been boring if it had had a smaller field without such strong competitors, because do you know how many people were actually competing in that event? How many?
Phoebe:Five. Wait, so there were three winners. Yep, there were two others. So if you removed cyclists who came first and second, you would just have three people in an event all standing on the podium. Yes, right, it's a very small competition, yeah.
Rachel:She welcomes the competition. She acknowledges that the two people that came first and second are strong competitors. Yeah, she's not against it. And this is another example of people who have nothing to do with cycling, nothing to do with women's cycling, just sitting at home in front of their computers shouting at the internet. Yeah. That trans women are taking the places of cis women Right, when actually the people who are involved don't see a problem with it at all.
Phoebe:Yes, but meanwhile there has been an overall ban right in cycling. Yes, but it doesn't include this type. Perhaps. No, right? No, but this is her hobby, right? She's getting a medical degree. Yeah, yeah, and there were lots of other events held on the day that weren't won by trans competitors. Yeah, yeah, okay.
Rachel:You know, this reminds me of all the people who are saying that trans women shouldn't be allowed to take part in park runs.
Phoebe:Oh, yes, yes Right.
Rachel:Park park run is essentially a fun run where the only person you're racing is yourself. Yeah, trying to improve on your own time from previous weeks. Yeah, and they're up in arms because trans women are participating in these events and they're saying that every time they come in front of a cis woman, you're taking a place away from those cis women.
Phoebe:Right, but that's meaningless.
Rachel:Absolutely ridiculous.
Phoebe:Yeah.
Rachel:Yeah, I mean, trans women are even allowed in the Olympics. Yeah, so anyway that cycling, yay. Talk about swimming.
Phoebe:Oh sure, with the next story, yes, yes. So this is Diane and I had Diane and I had done some deep dive thinking.
Rachel:Yeah, did you like that.
Phoebe:I did so. She's a lesbian swimmer who changed her stance on trans athletes, saying I regret any harm I caused, unlike people like Riley Gaines who are happily causing as much harm as they possibly can because they're getting paid quite well for it. I'm just looking at another headline Riley Gaines slammed cis female cyclist as traitor to women after sharing support for trans competitors. Goodness gracious, okay, yeah, diane and I had. She's 74 years old now, so please don't say that old people don't understand trans women, cause I've heard that before as well. So Diana is the subject of a biopic by Netflix, yes, starring Jodie Foster Jodie Foster, no less, um, and she wrote an op-ed in the Washington post in 2022 arguing against trans women's inclusion in elite sports on women's teams.
Rachel:Yeah.
Phoebe:But I guess she came up for air and changed her tune because she said she's done a lot of deep dive thinking and her views have evolved. She said in an interview with out I have come to understand that the science is far more complex than I thought and there are clearly more educated experts than I who are creating policy to ensure that elite sports are both there and inclusive of all women.
Rachel:Yeah, she added that the climate for trans community has turned dire and dangerous and that all women are negatively affected by trans women being targeted by discrimination and abuse in sports and elsewhere. Right, I just want to read the last line because it's it's lovely. Yeah, she closed off by saying we are all sisters and siblings under the blue sky and we should all have equal opportunities to play the sports we choose, the sports we love.
Phoebe:Well, that's beautiful, yeah, well, what we do know is that policies that are against inclusion affect all women, because they lead to other policies that also affect all women.
Rachel:You know it's going back to this whole thing is we're not erasing women by existing. It's not a pie. Yeah, not only so much to go around. We can all exist together and women's problems are all women's problems trans or cis, yes, and we should be put. We should all be pulling in the same direction. But there are people that like to stir up the pot and put two factions against each other, because if we're fighting each other, we're not fighting them. No, that's, that's what it all boils down to, really. Yeah.
Phoebe:Oh, this is all a bit like your intro, though, where all these different categories of sports and mental sports are now having trans women banned from competing, often for reasons that don't make any sense.
Rachel:No, no, the only reason is we're trans, yeah, and they say that we have some kind of advantage. And, like you said, even sports that aren't physical at all we have an advantage in, yeah, like chess, yeah.
Phoebe:Oh, croquet was another one I saw this morning. Croquet, croquet, yeah.
Rachel:Goodness yeah.
Phoebe:But yeah, chess pool, darts, darts, darts, mmm yes. Meanwhile, elite swimming's governing body, fina yes, has banned trans women from competing in women's elite races. They created a separate open category for trans and non-binary competitors.
Rachel:That's right. They did and didn't the last time they actually did that. Nobody took part in that category.
Phoebe:Yeah, yeah, so they cancelled it. Yeah, mmm. Yeah, nobody signed up.
Rachel:Well, that's the other thing, because trans athletes are so few and far between All right, trans people make up approximately 1% of the population. So how many athletes do you think that produces? Yes, so this is why the whole idea of having a separate trans category falls down, because there's not enough of us.
Phoebe:No, but meanwhile there's the claim that differences in body size or bone density, which I still don't understand how there's any advantage in that. What I do know is that, oh, what's the UK swimmer that's been Sharon Davies, Sharon Davies. Sharon Davies is that she has size 14 feet. It just goes to show the overlap in body sizes is far more Wait, that's bigger than my feet. It's more than the difference between sexes.
Rachel:I'm not swimming against her. She has a biological advantage, exactly. So if we move on to the last story, let's do it. So our final story, yes, is Glinner and Co lonely together. Do you want to remind people who Glinner is?
Phoebe:Yes, he's also known as Graham Linerhan or, as we call them, graham Weinham.
Rachel:Weinham, yeah, Weinham yeah, yeah, wrote.
Phoebe:some TV shows 20 years ago, became vehemently anti trans over one episode which was quite transphobic and he couldn't handle the criticism and has since ruined his life.
Rachel:Yes, and he. He hosts a podcast along with Helen Staniland. And what's the other guy's name? Archie, archie, and on this podcast, archie. Well, should we? Should we listen to what you had to say? Yeah, let's just play it.
Arty:And in the meantime it's so exhausting and tiring. I am just so you know. I've lost all of my friends. I'm utterly lonely and utterly. It's so hard to find any kind of work because I'm so tainted Just having normal views. I can't wait for the tide to shift, but it's going to be a little while still, you know it's very depressing.
Phoebe:Wait, so we've got Wynam and this guy. Yep. They're saying that their normal views have led them to be lonely and out of work. Yes, well, what about all the other people that hold normal views? Are they lonely and out of work too? I think the problem here might be the views they hold. I think it might be. Yeah.
Rachel:I think it might be. But the other thing is they can't see that. They can't see that they're on the wrong side of this. They're saying they can't get work. They're saying that all of their friends have deserted them because of their beliefs. Yeah, but it's not them, it's everybody else. Yes, I mean, it really does just show you how insane the gender critical thinking is.
Phoebe:Yes, well, they can be lonely together.
Rachel:They can. Yeah, they deserve each other.
Phoebe:Well, let's jump to the final section.
Rachel:Ah, the questions.
Phoebe:The questions the part of the podcast where we answer any transition related questions and offer information on all aspects of being trans, from how to come out to what to wear when you go out.
Rachel:And, as always, we need to point out that the content of this podcast is for general information and entertainment purposes only. You should always seek the advice of a qualified expert before making any decisions based on the information provided.
Phoebe:Yes, and then we need to do some essential advice. Okay, could we have the first question please, red?
Rachel:Of course, and our questions, as always, because no one sent any in yet from the Reddit transgender forums. Oh, I do hope that someone sends us a question. Any question, please. That would make our Christmas. If you could send us one before Christmas, we'd be so happy We'll read it out on a Christmas special.
Phoebe:What Okay?
Rachel:Perfect, okay. So the first question is about HRT, funnily enough, which ties in with what we were talking about at the top of the show yeah, top of the podcast. And the title of this question is did HRT make anyone else want bottom surgery when they didn't before? Hmm, so I'll just read this out. I'm MTF, male to female, and have been on HRT for 10 months and suddenly have been wanting to get bottom surgery.
Rachel:I never felt bad about my genitals before, sometimes liking them. Now I feel more indifferent, just kind of like I'm not dysphoric about them, but just think it could be better. It almost feels like I just want to let it atrophy. It feels weird, because this is kind of the same way I felt about gender dysphoria as a whole. I was eventually like I don't really mind being a boy, but I think I prefer being a gal. And now it's I hate, hate being a man and know I'm a woman and I'm wondering if that's what's happening here. I actually kind of love and appreciate how I can have a penis and still be a woman, but I just kind of out of nowhere, started thinking about bottom surgery. It was never even on the table before and now I'm just thinking about it. Has anyone ever felt this way? I know I just need to give it time to think, but it's just like why now?
Phoebe:Hmm, yes, I'm very familiar with this.
Rachel:Did you go through something similar?
Phoebe:I did, but I think the premise of the question needs a change. It's not, it's the process of transition and HRT, but you can't just say it's the one. I fully understand atrophy this is the third time we're talking about it this episode but with other changes as well changes in sex drive, for example and it's like this person says what's the point. And I found myself thinking more and more about bottom surgery, to the point that I know that's the future of my transition plan.
Rachel:Yeah.
Phoebe:How was?
Rachel:it for you, for me, when I first started transitioning, I actually remember telling my psychologist this, because it's one of the questions that they ask you about having dysphoria. Yeah. You know why are you dysphoric about your genitals, and I was much like this person.
Rachel:I was like oh you know it's there, take it or leave it, not really too bothered about it either way. But as I've gone further into my transition it's created a misalignment between the way I've started to look. It doesn't look right anymore. It shouldn't be there. It doesn't serve much of a purpose anymore. It's wrong in my head, it's wrong. So originally, when I started transitioning, I had no problem with it. But the further I've gone into my transition, the more I've gravitated towards actually having bottom surgery.
Rachel:But to say it's the HRT that's making you want bottom surgery, it's not that. I think it's your overall self image as you start to actually see yourself as the woman you know you are. This one thing is obviously not right. You then switch to thinking about how I need to correct that. I think that goes for everything that we do during transition. I know it was with a breast augmentation. I had no thoughts about having a breast augmentation until someone mentioned it to me that was you, by the way it was and it got stuck in my head like an earworm and suddenly it never really crossed my mind. It was something that I couldn't have afforded to do. And here you were talking about it. I was like oh, you know what, that would be great if I could do that. Yeah. So I generally think HRT doesn't make you want bottom surgery, but the changes from HRT changes the way you perceive yourself and that is what then makes you think you could potentially have bottom surgery. Yeah.
Phoebe:I think this is a great place. By the way, that was really well said, and I think this is a good place to mention that someone else who has been interviewed on this podcast tweeted just the other day that it's been five months since their bottom surgery and they've forgotten what it ever felt like to have a penis.
Rachel:I'm so jealous of that.
Phoebe:Right, yeah, yeah, I'd like that to happen, but meanwhile I'm trying not to feel bad about what I do have, because you know you work with what you got right. Yeah, exactly, you play the hands, you're dealt. Yeah, yeah, they can still be fun.
Rachel:Yeah, there was a joke in there somewhere about playing with hands.
Phoebe:I'm missing all your jokes tonight?
Rachel:Yeah, never mind. Okay, do you want to go for the second question?
Phoebe:Yeah, oh, this is a good one. Is there any reason for me to continue seeing a GIC? So it's a gender identity clinic, and by that I presume they might mean the UK.
Rachel:The must be. I think that's the way the GIC is.
Phoebe:Yeah, yeah, their tilde is I entered the system at 17 and now at 23,. I've been forced to relive traumas over and over again, have no prescriptions to show for it, and now they're considering safeguarding me from HRT because I was abused growing up for being trans. I'm an adult, I've been DIY for years now, so is there any point in putting up with this anymore? I just can't deal with it. I want out of the system for good. This also sounds like one of those GICs where they do a slow roll conversion. They say yeah, you know, come in for another appointment. We're going to go over things again and again and you're never actually going to get to the end of this process, because we want you to give up. Yeah.
Rachel:You know we had Robin on in her Transpiration Special and she was saying that the GIC had actually come through for her. But this is a common thread. This question is what I've been seeing a lot of. If you are lucky enough to get to a GIC, they have guidelines in place and, like you said, it is a really or can be a really slow process. And if this person doesn't have any prescriptions and not getting what they want to out of it and they are already DIYing, I don't really see any point of them continuing with it, especially if it's triggering them.
Phoebe:Oh, yes, I mean okay. So they've been there for six years now, waiting and this, reliving traumas. You know, I mean I had that just with regular therapy and it did terrible things. It's not worth it and things so DIY doesn't have to be that difficult and it's definitely going to be a part of an episode in the future.
Rachel:Absolutely, yeah, yeah, unfortunately, I think that's the way that more people are going to have to go in the UK, because it seems to be just recently. I've seen a lot of it on the forums how people like myself who are lucky enough to have shared care with their GP suddenly finding that shared care pooled. Yeah.
Rachel:I had a little experience of that last time I went to fill my prescription. It was lucky enough to have managed to get it through, but I anticipate that in a few weeks time, when I need to fill that prescription again, they're not going to do it.
Phoebe:Oh gosh, that was awful for you. Yeah. That was so stressful. It's one of the things we have as trans people is. We have a sort of hormone scarcity stress. What happens when they run out?
Rachel:Prescription anxiety. That's it. Yes, there's a general consensus, and there are rumours that a actual memo went around telling GPs to discourage people from paying privately for healthcare and then getting their prescriptions on the NHS. This is all comes down to cost, right? That's kind of what's happening at the moment.
Phoebe:Well, it's one bit of info I know about the UK relating to estrogen. It doesn't help those who are on testosterone, which is a controlled substance, but with estrogen you are allowed to import it, you're allowed to buy it from other suppliers. You don't need a prescription, no, so at least DIY for MTFs is a little bit easier in the UK.
Rachel:Yeah, okay. That's the end of the questions and this episode.
Phoebe:Goodness. So it is a wrap for this episode of the Joy Tuck Club. We want to thank you, our listeners, for tuning in and being part of our community. If you want to connect with us further, please visit our website, thejoytuckclubcom, where you can find show notes, resources, transcripts and more.
Rachel:You can also follow us on Twitter, Instagram and Blue Sky with the handle at to damp trans. That's all words, no numbers. And now on Facebook as well, where you can DM us if you have any questions or topics you would like us to discuss.
Phoebe:Don't forget to subscribe and rate us on Spotify, Apple YouTube now as well, or wherever you listen to podcasts. We're on all the popular platforms now.
Rachel:And of course, as always, even some of the unpopular ones too.
Phoebe:We appreciate your feedback and support.
Rachel:So until next time, remember you are valid, you are beautiful and you are transcending boundaries.
